tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3931921496989071942.post431410888784243951..comments2023-06-08T07:32:39.725-05:00Comments on Aristotle's Feminist Subject: Proverbs 14 Part IJ. K. Gaylehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07600312868663460988noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3931921496989071942.post-50708294139662941692011-06-15T19:00:24.249-05:002011-06-15T19:00:24.249-05:00responding too quickly - house must be masculineresponding too quickly - house must be masculineBob MacDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11335631079939764763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3931921496989071942.post-11172924274431424322011-06-15T18:34:43.549-05:002011-06-15T18:34:43.549-05:00There are so many proverbs - if it takes 24 hours ...There are so many proverbs - if it takes 24 hours to read an ponder one, it's going to take an age to translate the lot. <br /><br />Yes hands is plural - I missed that. Also the 'him' - the house is both male and female. (If indeed the him is referring to the house - which seems likely.)Bob MacDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11335631079939764763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3931921496989071942.post-38278174096096004852011-06-15T17:26:39.253-05:002011-06-15T17:26:39.253-05:00The online interlinear renders this, in word-for-w...The online interlinear renders this, in word-for-word English:<br /><br />"Wise-ones-of women she-builds house-of-her and folly in-hands-of-her she-is-pulling-down-him."<br /><br />http://scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/pro14.pdf<br /><br />Which, in light of what Bob McDonald has posted and what you have said, Kurk, leads me to wonder if it might mean something like:<br /><br />"The wisdom of women builds a woman's house, and folly in her hands pulls it down."<br /><br />In other words, that women can either tap into the "wisdom of women" (orally passed down?) to build their house, or reject it and just go with what their own "hands" can accomplish-- and end up pulling their house down.<br /><br />Does that make sense? And why do all the major translations say "A wise woman builds her house but a foolish one tears it down" and not even tell us of the nuances?Kristenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08252374623355509404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3931921496989071942.post-67303475305138380222011-06-15T13:58:06.270-05:002011-06-15T13:58:06.270-05:00Here's my take on what I see in the Hebrew. ht...Here's my take on what I see in the Hebrew. http://meafar.blogspot.com/2011/06/proverbs-141.html<br /><br />It is unexpected.Bob MacDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11335631079939764763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3931921496989071942.post-74288557673745748022011-06-15T06:04:57.237-05:002011-06-15T06:04:57.237-05:00Jared - Dr. Calaway!
First, congrats on defending ...Jared - Dr. Calaway!<br />First, congrats on defending your dissertation in August after working under the guidance of the late Professor Alan F. Segal; and thanks for sharing it with us all online recently! What tremendous work! <br /><br />Second, great question here. The feminine plural, in Greek, points back to a theme of the ancient Greek poets and playwrights. Proverbs 14:1, then, punctuates an emphasis on "women" PLURAL being most wise, in contrast to the theme of certain ones being wise or of men being wiser. Just three examples:<br /><br />1.<br /><br />Οὐδ᾽ ἴαν δοκίμοιμι προσίδοισαν φάος ἀλίω<br />ἔσσεσθαι <b>σοφίαν πάρθενον</b> ἐις οὐδένα πω χρόνον τοιαύταν.<br /><br />Anne Carson, translating this fragment of Sappho (as cited by Chrysippos), makes this:<br /><br />not one <b>girl</b> I think<br />who looks on the light of the sun<br />will ever<br />have <b>wisdom</b><br />like this<br /><br />2. <br /><br />πάντα γὰρ δι’ ἀρσένων <b>γυναιξὶ</b> πράσσειν εἰκός, αἵτινες <b>σοφαί</b>.<br /><br />Eugene O'Neill has this for this critical early line (40) in "The Suppliant Women":<br /><br />for <b>women</b> should in all cases invoke the aid of men, <b>women</b> that are <b>discreet</b>.<br /><br />3. <br /><br />And, here's David Kovacs's translation from Euripides's "Hippolytus" where women, wives, wisdom, and the house are emphasized:<br /><br />But the man with a nullity for a wife—he has it easy, although a woman who sits in a house and is a fool is a trouble. But a clever woman—that I loathe! May there never be in my house a woman with more intelligence than befits a woman! For Aphrodite engenders more mischief in the clever. The woman without ability is kept from indiscretion by the slenderness of her wit.<br /><br />ῥᾷστον δ’ ὅτῳ τὸ μηδέν, ἀλλ’ ἀνωφελὴς εὐηθίᾳ κατ’ οἶκον ἵδρυται γυνή. σοφὴν δὲ μισῶ· μὴ γὰρ ἔν γ’ ἐμοῖς δόμοις εἴη φρονοῦσα πλείον’ ἢ γυναῖκα χρή. τὸ γὰρ κακοῦργον μᾶλλον ἐντίκτει Κύπρις ἐν ταῖς σοφαῖσιν· ἡ δ’ ἀμήχανος γυνὴ γνώμῃ βραχείᾳ μωρίαν ἀφῃρέθη.<br /> <br />Look at that Greek lexical and phonological wordplay!! But see the theme that Proverbs 14:1 LXX words against: the proverb, contra the conventional Greek wisdom, has women plural building houses and homes by / as wisdom.<br /><br />I'll let somebody else talk about the Hebrew. What do you think, Jared? <br /><br />But Brenton and [NETS Septuagint] translator Johann Cook also render it, "Wise <b>women</b> build houses [built homes]," to start off Proverbs 14:1.J. K. Gaylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07600312868663460988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3931921496989071942.post-74106738352303521982011-06-14T17:09:18.483-05:002011-06-14T17:09:18.483-05:00What do you make of the feminine plural--not just ...What do you make of the feminine plural--not just adding "woman" or "of woman" but "women" in both versions, for which "wise/wisdom" agrees?Jared Calawayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09380681998833566514noreply@blogger.com