ἐπεὶ δὲ τὸ νικα̂ν ἡδύ, ἀνάγκη καὶ τὰς παιδιὰς ἡδείας εἰ̂ναι τὰς μαχητικὰς καὶ τὰς ἐριστικάς πολλάκις γὰρ ἐν ταύταισγίγνεται τὸ νικα̂ν̓, καὶ ἀστραγαλίσεις καὶ σφαιρίσεις καὶ κυβείας καὶ πεττείας
Aristotle has written this in his Rhetoric
(see Book I, Chapter XI, Verse 15;
Bekker 1370b lines 34-35 and 1371a, line 1).
How do you read that?
Which of these translations do you prefer, and why? (How would you better translate?)
“Since winning is pleasurable, necessarily, games of physical combat and mental wit are pleasurable (winning often takes place in these) and games of knucklebone and dice and backgammon.” – George A. Kennedy, 2007/1991
“But since winning is pleasant, competitive and emulous games must also be pleasant (for in them winning often comes about), as well as ‘knuckle-bones’, ball games, dice playing and backgammon.” – Hugh Lawson-Tancred, 1991
“The pleasantness of victory implies of course that combative sports and intellectual contests are pleasant (since in these it often happens that some one wins) and also games like knuckle-bones, ball, dice, and draughts.” – W. Rhys Roberts, 1954
“And since victory is pleasant, competitive and disputatious amusements must be so too, for victories are often gained in them; among these we may include games with knuckle-bones, ball-games, dicing, and draughts.” – John H. Freese, 1926
“But since to overcome is pleasant, it must follow of course, as those of music and disputations, are pleasant; for it frequently occurs, in the course of these, that we overcome; also chess, ball, dice, and droughts.” – Theodore Buckley (redoing Thomas Hobbes’ translation), 1890
“Thence the delight taken in all kinds of competitions, whether serious or playful; in those of music, science, and philosophy, not less than in such light pastimes as cockals, foot-ball, draughts, and dice.” – John Gillies, 1823
“Since, however, it is pleasant to conquer, those sports, also, must be delightful which relate to war, to playing on the pipe, and to verbal contests; for in these victory is frequently obtained. This is likewise the case with the games of dice, tennice, tables &c.” – Thomas Taylor, 1818
“Seeing then it is a pleafing thing to vanquifh, therefore of neceffity, all fports and exercifes relating to War, Mufic or Difputation, of neceffity muft be delightful, in regard it was a frequent thing to be viєtorious in thofe things: as alfo all manner of Games, as Cards, Dice, Tennice, Tables, &c.” – “Translators”, 1686
14 comments:
I prefer:
“Thence the delight taken in all kinds of competitions, whether serious or playful; in those of music, science, and philosophy, not less than in such light pastimes as cockals, foot-ball, draughts, and dice.” – John Giles, 1823
I think I prefer it for clarity of thought. All of the other translations seem too unwieldy and don't make their point as directly. I'm not sure what changes I would make as I haven't looked up the Greek :P
Thanks Nathan. I really like that you compared the clarity in the English versions first. Does your lect have cockals and draughts? Mine doesn't have the former and prefers checkers to the latter. And my football is mainly the American sport played in the Superbowl not so much in the World Cup.
If you do get a chance to look at the Greek, I'd be real interested in whether that changes your choice or makes you want to offer your own translation.
JK, this is fun. I knew you wouldn't be able to quit blogging cold turkey. Even though I signed on only so that I could comment I've been thinking about a post and might throw something out later this week.
PS. No votes on verfions. But I love the "f."
David, Promifes, promifes. And you know the rules here. Play on.
Promife kept. Rules?
I don't understand all the Greek, but from what I do understand, I don't know where some of these translations are getting their ideas. Where is the Greek for "mental wit" and "intellectual contests" is that from "τὰς ἐριστικάς πολλάκις"? Where does John Giles get "music, science, and philosophy". The four oldest translations have the idea of music were they using a different text?
From my limited Greek, I would say Freese does the best in translating what is in the text in a clear way although it would help to change "dicing, and draughts" to something like "dice and checkers".
Daniel,
I think you must be right that Gillies (my misspelling of his name as Giles earlier) and the earlier translators were working from MSS that had something additional suggesting music or “playing on the pipe.”
I like your "dice and checkers." And used that first word when offering a feminist translation and commentary. Hope that answers in some ways your other questions about the Greek.
Daniel,
Mystery solved on "music" and "playing the pipe." It is variant MSS acknowledged by Leonard Spengel in his 1867 with his Latin translation of and commentary on Aristotle's Rhetoric. I do have a copy now. Here's that note from page 518:
"[τὰς μαχητικὰς καὶ τὰς ἐριστικάς] Ita optime A; reliqui cum vet. transl. post καὶ τὰς inserunt αὐλητικὰς καί, quo er res et ordo turbatur, unde Toupius Cur. in Suid. P. III p. 461"
Now Spengel goes on with more comment, on the different MSS and their alternatives to this. But this much is clear:
"τὰς αὐλητικὰς" is the missing piece.
It means "flute-ish" (and from some sort of woodwind instrument mentioned in Homer's epics; Cleopatra's father was called Auletes, or flute player, which is related).
Seems that the 1877 Greek text of E.M. Copy and J.E. Sandys (Cambridge) and the W.D. Ross Greek manuscript (1959, Oxford, and the one I'm using), decided that that fragment didn't belong in Aristotle's Rhetoric.
Unfortunately my lexicons are only for NT and don't cover the vocabulary. I determined the astra prefix and dice but have nothing else to go on here.
I've got long term plans to read Koine from non-biblical sources. What lexicons would you recommend for that?
The old standard lexicon for many is the Oxford published classic "edited by Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, Henry Stuart Jones, and Roderick McKenzie."
But I'd certainly recommend more than just a lexicon. If you can use concordances to find terms in context, then you can see more easily how meanings are stable or how they change over time. (Since you're starting with the NT, I'd suggest moving out into the LXX before you get to some of the Greek treatises of Plato or Aristotle. In fact, since the likes of these "scientists" and "philosophers" are so technical, you might find Homer, Hesiod, Sappho, or Euripides with their epics, poetry, and plays to be interesting users of Greek that's more accessible initially).
For example, I find Aristotle's ἀστράγαλος as in the Rhetoric noted here (not in the NT) but in the Bible anyway: LXX, at Zechariah 11:16 and Daniel 5:5 & 5:24. In the former, the sense is a neck-bone joint; in the latter, the sense is a knuckle.
Now, the LXX translators of the Hebrew Bible are like looking at Aristotle's and other's uses of the word. The translators didn't have the kind of lexicons we do. But maybe the context of how others use words (as a concordance shows) is more instructive anyway. Aristotle is clearly using the word as the name of a game played with some kind of knuckle or neck bone. Hence, the LXX translators have no problem using the word these three times.
Hope that helps some! Thank you for the conversation. You are making me think through practices I take for granted too often.
My dad and I are currently installing Logos. In between steps I looked up ἀστραγαλίσεις above and it came up empty. However I just looked up ἀστράγαλος per your last comment and I got a ton of results.
So it seems I now have the resources and just need to figure out how to search correctly. It looks like I need to figure out a root word for lexicons based on whatever form I find it in context, is that it?
You are probably already familiar with the Perseus-Tufts online Greek lexicon, but in case you aren't, it is too good to miss. Kurk's link to Wikipedia has a link to it at the bottom. It uses the Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon as one of its resources. One of the nice things about it is that you can put in just part of the word like "astrag", and it will give you a list of words to choose from.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/resolveform?lang=greek
Perseus-Tufts online Greek lexicon
Thanks Dan I didn't have that link before.
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